KDE 4 Fanboys: seriously, knock it off.

When I say “I’m looking for a way to make KDE 3.5.10 work on Slackware 13″ or “I’m looking for applications to replace the ones I’ve gotten used to using in KDE, since I won’t be installing KDE going forward”, what does that mean to you?

I know what it means to me… it means I’m looking for some procedural help to accomplish a task, help from some other technically minded individuals who may offer some useful suggestions on how to make something work.

It means I’m looking for ideas for what kind of applications to try, since the open source universe is a big one, and while I try out and use and write about a lot of apps, there’s no way for me to be up on EVERYTHING.

To me, both of those things seem pretty clear and apparent. But based on what I keep seeing in response to things like that, I guess they somehow aren’t that clear.

So, to clarify, here’s what questions like that DO NOT mean.


They don’t mean you should respond with things like this. This is one example, but I’ve been seeing it constantly, any time something like this gets brought up, and not just in response to my questions, but ANY time someone brings up replacing KDE 4 with something else:

I feel you may be disillusioned due to some of the changes in KDE4, but they are easily corrected.

1) KDE4 actually uses LESS resources then kde3, (at least for me) just by switching of the fancy compositing
2) The old style KDE menu is available as a widget. Simply left click anywhere on the desktop, choose add widget and select the kde traditional app launcher menu
3) In appearance settings, choose dektop view, and KDE4 then looks like KDE3
4) Okular is a much better PDF reader anyway (imo at least) and is part of KDE4
5) Konqueror is still included in KDE4. While I do agree, it is not as good as previous versions, it still gets the job done, and will no doubt improve over time.

Change is a difficult thing to deal with, especially when it puts us outside our comfort zone and the things we have been used to. Give it a chance and you could be pleasantly surprised at just how good KDE4 is.

Asking for help to replace KDE 4 applications with alternatives does not IN ANY WAY mean “hey, why don’t you try to sell me on KDE 4 again, even though I clearly have already used it enough in various iterations to have come to the determination that it won’t meet my needs!” or “to whom it may concern: please gently chide me on being resistant to change because I obviously am scared because KDE 4 is different; it surely can’t be that I simply don’t like using it or don’t find it useful.”

When you come back with something like that to a very clear and precise question, you come off like an ass.

If I’m asking something like that, rest assured, I have used KDE 4. I have figured out some workarounds. I am aware that it is different. And no, I don’t fear change just because a window manager is “different”.

I use a LOT of different window managers, and I go out of my way to try lots and lots of new ways of doing things.

You never know. You might run across something that’s really, really good that you otherwise might never have discovered. How do I know this? BECAUSE I USE LINUX.

I’ve had my hands on a large, diverse array of different applications, user interface paradigms, operating systems, window managers, and programs.

And among them have been KDE 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, AND 4.3. And I can say without any kind of reservations that KDE 4 is not for me.

So when I bring up something like “Hey, I’m looking to replace KDE apps, since I won’t be using KDE anymore”, I’m NOT, for your information, interested in having a debate with you about why I don’t gush with love over your new favorite eye-candy window manager/desktop environment.

YOU can love it. I really don’t care. But criticizing me for why I don’t like KDE 4 or accusing me of rejecting it because it’s “different” like I’m a child is just insulting, frankly.

Did it ever occur to you that not everyone LIKES your favorite shiny? Did it ever occur to you that KDE 3.5.10 — which so many of you apparently and inexcplicably revile — might have been MY favorite window manager, and to see it replaced with this trash is just a little bit upsetting?

How that somehow equates to “change is hard” is complete bull. Change isn’t hard. I change window managers and desktop environments frequently. I have changed operating systems. I have changed how I do things computing and technology-wise so many times that I’m constantly discovering new things to tinker with.

My dislike of KDE 4 has absolutely nothing to do with “change” being “hard”. It has everything to do with it not meeting my needs.

And when I ask a question about moving on to something else, I’m frankly not interested in discussing why you think KDE 4 is so incredibly great, and how I’m so “stuck in the past” for not liking it. Grow the hell up. Stop acting like a child.

And if you don’t have something constructive to add to the discussion, keep your opinion on it to yourself. I’ve been seeing this everywhere, and while I’m willing to say something about it, I know there are a lot of others who are afraid to pipe in because every time the KDE 3.5 dilemma gets brought up — because KDE 4 is simply not an adequate replacement for them — they have to constantly defend their position like their opinion is somehow “wrong”.

So to the KDE 4 fanboys who keep doing this out there: seriously. Knock it off already. Go love your KDE 4 and let those of us who are seeking technical solutions to the mess the KDE developers have created for us figure them out. We don’t need your “help” if that’s all you have to offer.

Thank you.

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58 thoughts on “KDE 4 Fanboys: seriously, knock it off.

    • Suck it up, install GNOME or KDE 3.5 and stop whining.

      Thank you, Den, for supplying me with another truly excellent example of the kind of ass-hattery that I’m talking about. :)

  1. I agree, that attitude isn’t helpful. Nevertheless I have something else to say: if KDE4 doesn’t meet your needs I guess anyone can respect that (it’s a matter of taste), but you must understand that if you call something trash and you find it to be messy, people will disagree and will respond and you won’t stop it because in the end everyone wants his/her opinion to prevail (since it’s your perception of truth). Quite frankly you should just ignore any posts from fanboys. They are a disease anywhere they are.

    • but you must understand that if you call something trash and you find it to be messy, people will disagree and will respond and you won’t stop it because in the end everyone wants his/her opinion to prevail (since it’s your perception of truth)

      Of that I have no doubt.

      Unfortunately, the knee-jerk response (in the various forums I frequent) from people simply asking a question about going back to 3.5, or ditching KDE entirely — no matter how diplomatically phrased — is always “but WHY don’t you like KDE 4? Do you just not understand it? Is it just different?

      It’s gotten to the point where a loudmouth like me is getting to be afraid of even asking such questions (no matter how politely) because of that kind of condescending nonsense.

      Calling it “trash” is my knee just jerking in the other direction. :P

      Quite frankly you should just ignore any posts from fanboys. They are a disease anywhere they are.

      To a point, I agree with you. But like I said, anymore the pervasive attitude is getting to the point where the fanboys are drowning out actual useful help, and I’m just sick of it.

      Take for example the guy (“Den”) who commented just before you here. I’d bet money he didn’t even read my article… he probably just read the title and spewed.

      I’m seeing that even on LinuxQuestions.org, and it’s getting on my nerves. That’s the main place I go when I have complex questions (like “how do I install KDE 3.5 on whatever”), and the KDE trolls prevail.

      Hard to ignore. I just felt the need to rant about it today when everywhere I looked it seems I was encountering this while I was just looking for a simple answer to (what I thought was) a simple question.

      Thanks for the comment though… it’s appreciated. :)

  2. Frankly, your post should be titled generic $DE fanboys: Seriously, knock it off!
    Similar “helpful” posts are written, no matter what DE you complain about — GNOME, XFCE, LXDE blah blah blah.

    So, you come across as a bitter person who cannot either:
    1. Ignore comments you don’t like
    2. Treat them like replies for any other gripe about open-source.

    • So, you come across as a bitter person who cannot either:
      1. Ignore comments you don’t like
      2. Treat them like replies for any other gripe about open-source.

      I am bitter. Because KDE 4 has effectively replaced my desktop of choice, I’m stuck in limbo and trying to figure out what to do going forward.

      Doing so means I’m going to occasionally need some help from the Linux community.

      And I wrote this today after about the 10th time I saw people like me, asking simple, straightforward questions, and getting jumped on by people effectively treating them like idiots because they didn’t LOVE KDE 4.

      It isn’t a matter of “ignoring” comments I don’t like. It’s a matter of those comments being so heavy now that it is making for a very hostile environment to ask for help.

      And that’s never positive or constructive.

      So yes, I’m bitter. My desktop of choice was replaced with something that I find unusable, and unfortunately it’s now very unpopular apparently to bring KDE 4 up anywhere without expressing love for it, and I’m sick of it, and I felt it necessary to say something about it.

      If someone isn’t jumping on the KDE 4 bandwagon, it isn’t necessary to try and sell them on it, try to condescend to them about “change”, and it certainly isn’t necessary to tell them “well you’d better buck up and get used to it, because that’s how it is”.

      With that kind of attitude, one might as well just go back to the Windows world.

  3. Just wondering… what shortcomings of KDE4 do you feel don’t adequately fit your needs?

    I agree with your post in general that people shouldn’t be so quick to tell you what you should like and why you should like it… but calling KDE4 trash, saying it’s “not for you” and then not elaborating at all isn’t exactly helpful.

    Perhaps if you actually gave some useful comments on what specifically you don’t like, someone might just go ahead and say “Hey thats a great idea, I’ll work on that”.

    Or you can keep writing posts like this that aren’t at all helpful… either way.

    • Thanks for the comment. Like “Den“, above, you are providing another flawless example of exactly what I’m talking about in my rant.

      I’m not sure if you’re a troll, or if you honestly don’t get my point, but either way, I don’t think I could have put it better myself.

    • His point was that he’s tried REPEATEDLY to give useful comments on what specifically he doesn’t like, and REPEATEDLY he’s been beaten down. Issues of basic functionality (like, say, creating desktop shortcuts) receive responses of “you’re just resistant to change!” rather than “oh, you just need to do XYZ.”

      • Not even that… I see those kinds of comments to posts that aren’t even ABOUT KDE 4. On the contrary, these posts are about OTHER apps, OTHER window managers that myself and others are trying out instead of KDE 4.

        And that’s what really ticks me off. “But WHY don’t you like KDE4? Is it because it’s different? You didn’t give a REASON!” when that isn’t even what the point of the conversation is. Ugh.

  4. I don’t care much about these battles. Personally I’m using Awesome, Musca, at times PekWM and when I’m in a nostalgic mode I run WindowMaker (old school but still amazingly good environment). In other words I’m not running a real DE at all. At work however my PC runs KDE 4.3.

    No a comment about the article. Generally the content is fairly acceptable, and I agree with the point that it might get annoying when people don’t give up on telling you what should do. That said I think some parts of the article is a strategic disaster. It’s not about mutual respect here, at least not as it’s written. Your conclusion is: piss off, you’re software is crap! You can say “I didn’t mean that”, but that’s what you wrote as long as we don’t dig into a semantic exploration beyond the written words.

    Thus to me it looks more like a therapy exercise, not intended for the public.

    • It’s not about mutual respect here, at least not as it’s written.

      No, it certainly isn’t. It is DEFINITELY NOT about mutual respect.

      Your conclusion is: piss off, you’re software is crap! You can say “I didn’t mean that”, but that’s what you wrote as long as we don’t dig into a semantic exploration beyond the written words.

      I was pretty mad when I wrote this yesterday. That’s a really good assessment of it. :)

      Thus to me it looks more like a therapy exercise, not intended for the public.

      I don’t really care if anyone reads it or not. Normally when I make a new post on this blog I link to it on Twitter; this one I didn’t.

      I know from years of experience that the KDE 4 fanboys won’t stop being jerks to people asking for help simply because I post a rant here. :)

      Heck, as you can see, a couple of them even did the same crap HERE; whether it was just trolling or if they honestly don’t understand my point remains to be seen.

      But it still had to be said.

      Thanks for reading it, even though you obviously weren’t the intended audience. ;)

  5. I agree about not liking kde4, I hate all these widgets and crap, this is my desktop, not some one else. I want icons and icons that are pictures on my desktop, not 4 clocks and other gadgets. I want that screen area to do what I want not what some out of work coder thinks is cool on my desktop. Give me my freedom back to completely configure my desktop, just like kde3.5 does. And it seem that when ever you go looking for kde 3.5 someone suggest that you get kde4, not what your looking for.

    • Give me my freedom back to completely configure my desktop, just like kde3.5 does. And it seem that when ever you go looking for kde 3.5 someone suggest that you get kde4, not what your looking for.

      EXACTLY.

      And it isn’t even a matter of simply “ignoring comments” that aren’t helpful… it seems like that’s ALL or in the very least MOST of the comments anymore.

      I honestly don’t get the people that say things like “well, kde4 does everything I need, I don’t see why you can’t like it”.

      It doesn’t do MOST of what KDE 3.5 does. And saying that you like KDE4 doesn’t help me replace it with something useful.

  6. Just my two cents on this issue, but I really don’t understand how someone can like KDE3 and not KDE4.

    To me, they’re both badly designed Windows-clones.
    Sure, KDE3 may have had more options than KDE4 but none of these options could remove all the bad aspects taken from Windows.

    For example, the menubar is inside each window and wastes screen real estates, you have the paradigm 1 window=1 application instead of 1 window=1 document which leads to an incoherent and underpowered window management. You cannot remove the taskbar and replace it with a real dock (not a half-implemented piece of crap).

    So, in the end, after wasting a lot of time trying to configure KDE3 correctly and after seeing that KDE4 was not at all a change of direction but just more of the same crap, I switched to Mac OS X.

    Now I have a desktop that has all the basic design decision done right and where I can customize all the important stuff using a launcher like Quicksilver and Applescript.

    Sure it’s not free software. But I don’t really care about the freedom to use crappy software.

    Maybe you can consider giving Mac OS X a try ?

    • Heh. Okay, you’re not trolling, I’ll give you that.

      Mac OS is too inflexible for my tastes. I’ve used it, I don’t like the paradigm. It’s way too “we made it like this because we like it this way, and you will like it too. LIKE IT.” *shakes fist*

      I like KDE 3 because it’s the most configurable desktop available for Linux. I dislike KDE 4 because it’s one of the least configurable I’ve used. Normally I’d just dismiss something like that, but considering that KDE 4 is replacing KDE 3 everywhere I look, including in my favorite distro it really ticks me off.

      I’m a tinkerer; KDE 4 is pretty anti-tinkerer, at least to the level I’m used to in my KDE desktops. Mac OS isn’t much better in that respect, though OS X is a lot more usable than KDE 4, that’s definitley true.

  7. Wow.

    That was long! Didn’t read the whole thing, but what I think you want to do is try KDE 4. It’s really good. Has all kinds of bells and whistles and can even moo when you want it to ;).

    No really, you don’t like KDE 4, don’t use it. Use KDE 3, or Haiku, or even Mac OS 9.

    • Wow.

      That was long! Didn’t read the whole thing, but what I think you want to do is try KDE 4. It’s really good. Has all kinds of bells and whistles and can even moo when you want it to ;).

      Funny. I like you. :)

      No really, you don’t like KDE 4, don’t use it. Use KDE 3, or Haiku, or even Mac OS 9.

      I don’t use it. KDE 3.5.10 is becoming pretty challenging to use though, because it’s pretty well dead now. Unfortunately, I’m still in the process of replacing some KDE apps of which I’ve grown fond, so it’s harder to “don’t use it” than it sounds. I still haven’t found a replacement for Amarok that I like as much, and apparently Quanta is a KDE app (I hadn’t been aware of that until recently), and I’m really going to miss things like K3b and Konqueror (as a file manager, not as a browser), to name just a few. :(

  8. Well for me personally using KDE4 is just the same as using KDE3, with minor differences but its just the same damn thing!? A lot smoother though but I did wait until it was around 4.3. And you could even configure it to be like KDE3.I just don understand whats the fuss is all about? KDE3 or 4 same thing unless comparing it to Awesome than thats different.

  9. Nice post, and i share your views. KDE4 does not “do it” for me. I like both KDE 3 and gnome, use both, find gnome more usable personally, but i still use KDE3 on occasion, like them both. But KDE4 simply does not meet my needs.

    And no, I don’t feel the need to give a list of why not, it doesn’t, and I have other alternatives, so i use them. If the software/environment does not suit my needs, i don’t use it, and I doubt i’m alone. It’s not about using one or the other, there is plenty of choice, and freedom to choose. Cheers. :)

    • t’s not about using one or the other, there is plenty of choice, and freedom to choose. Cheers.

      That is true, to a point. Of course now it’s damned near impossible to find a distro that is going to continue packaging KDE 3.5.10, which leaves many of us stuck with trying to get it to work on our own — not a simple task by any means!

      Or searching for something else. KDE 3.5 is such a broad and extensive environment that just dropping it and moving on is pretty painful, as I’m sure you can imagine, as someone who uses GNOME.

      It isn’t just the environment itself, but lots and lots of applications as well.

      When even Slackware has dumped KDE 3.5.10 in favor of KDE 4 that “freedom to choose” has pretty much trickled away to nothing. I’m pretty far from the “average user”, and the choice between KDE 4 and nothing else that can adequately replace it is one filled with a mountain of technical problems.

      For those less technical, it isn’t really much of a choice, sadly.

  10. If you ask someone’s help, you have to accept the answer.

    “I’m looking for applications to replace the ones I’ve gotten used to using in KDE, since I won’t be installing KDE going forward”

    My answer is simple: search the web, search the repository of you distro. Try some apps and see what happens.

    A linux user like yourself won’t have problems with that.

    • If you ask someone’s help, you have to accept the answer.

      Not if the answer isn’t helpful. A lot of people don’t bother to think before they spew their words on the web. A fair number of people do, however. One just has to learn to discard the nonsense and find the useful signal among all the noise. Fact of life when dealing with the web. :)

      My answer is simple: search the web, search the repository of you distro. Try some apps and see what happens.

      That’s precisely what I’ve been doing. In fact, I’m about 2/3 done with an article on exactly that subject, detailing my results and some of the deficiencies in the options available to one seeking to replace KDE.

    • Now, how about an article on the Gnome fanboys?

      To be honest, I don’t encounter very many.

      Unless that was a troll to get me to bite your head off or something. If so, that won’t work. I hate GNOME. So the joke’s on you if that’s the case. :P

  11. “KDE4 actually uses less resources than KDE3.”

    I keep hearing this, and I’m convinced that KDE4 conserves resources by being really really slow.

    I found this blog because i was looking for advice on how to upgrade Slackware 13 from KDE4.2 to KDE 3.5. After I’m done, maybe I’ll tell you how I got banned from the Kubuntu forum.

  12. Oh, I intend to make myself at home here. I would have gotten here sooner, if somebody had let me know.

    Some opening remarks. Since you seem to know me, you may know what I’m going to say.

    I support KDE4 (or as I like to call it, “Crazy KDE”) as a project because developers need to develop, and we all need developers. If not for KDE4, the developers would have probably broken KDE3 by now.

    KDE3 (i.e., “Regular KDE”) doesn’t need any developing. It needs maintainance, but it will be maintained if we can keep it alive. To keep it alive, KDE3 needs its own community.. the KDE community isn’t going to do it because they’re mostly developers, and most distros want to think of themselves as cutting edge blah blah blah. KDE3 fans need to take responsibility for keeping KDE3 alive. We shouldn’t get mad because people who for their own perfectly valid reasons prefer Crazy KDE aren’t interested in doing that for us.

    With all the distros out there, and all the dissatisfaction with the KDE4, , I’m pretty sure that there’s going to be a place to go for KDE3 as long as one is really needed. And we can help people evaluate and utilize these options, and maybe even create some for ourselves.

    Also I’d like to see some respect develop around this controversy, and some good natured humor.. No side has a monopoly on being an ass in these discussions. It’s time to cultivate a sense of friendly rivalry.

    Okay, I gotta go vote. It’s primary day!

    • Oh, I intend to make myself at home here. I would have gotten here sooner, if somebody had let me know.

      Oh I figured you’d show up eventually. It’s usually best to let those things take their time. If I put out enough blackbelt_jones bait, I knew you’d find me. :)

      You don’t know me, but I’m very familiar with your posts. Whenever I thought “WTF? Am I the only one that thinks this is nuts?” about KDE4 and went browsing around the web, there you were, already there ahead of me.

      You, as a matter of fact, were the reason why I decided not to bother with the KDE forums. There was nothing I had to say that you had not already said, and said it better and more diplomatically than I had planned.

      And seeing the futility of even that convinced me that there was no talking to those people (that, and reading tripe like this let me know that the KDE4 devs weren’t really interested in “fixing” most of the problems I had with KDE4. They were there by design.

      To keep it alive, KDE3 needs its own community.. the KDE community isn’t going to do it because they’re mostly developers, and most distros want to think of themselves as cutting edge blah blah blah. KDE3 fans need to take responsibility for keeping KDE3 alive. We shouldn’t get mad because people who for their own perfectly valid reasons prefer Crazy KDE aren’t interested in doing that for us.

      I agree 100%. While I admit I have no idea how we should go about doing that, something most definitely MUST be done, and sooner rather than later.

      In the year or so since SJVN made his rallying cry for a KDE fork, I have found no trace of any real work being done in that direction, and that’s ultimately what I feel needs to be done.

      Also I’d like to see some respect develop around this controversy, and some good natured humor.. No side has a monopoly on being an ass in these discussions. It’s time to cultivate a sense of friendly rivalry.

      Eh. Respect. You mean like we don’t call KDE 4 “trash”, and they don’t pity us for being “behind the times”?

      We’ll see how that goes. KDE4 has now taken the place of KDE3.5 in what used to be my favorite distro. The wounds are a bit too fresh at this point for me to make any commitments.

      At any rate, I’d like to re-extend a welcome to you here, bb_j. I’ve been interested in what you have to say, and I greatly appreciate your comments.

  13. Like you I find that KDE4 just doesn’t do it for me. I’ve spent some time getting KDE to work for me and found it near impossible to make KDE4 similarly functional. The killer for me was the inability to configure konsole the way I require. I’m an IT contractor and have setup a series of konsole sessions that i need to be constantly available on my laptop. After 2 weeks of trying to get it to work I gave up.
    Thank you for your “upgrade guide”. While it didn’t work exactly for me but was invaluable in finally getting pretty close. I had to start with a fresh install of Slackware 12.2 and upgrade to 13. I was unable to get the 12.0 to upgrade successfully and after 6 or 7 tries found that the various config files were interfering in ways I just couldn’t repair.
    I am now in the process of building QT4 from source and it will install to /usr/local/Trolltech/QT4…at least it will if it ever finishes compiling. I didn’t think about it when I began but 100+MB of source takes some time. 1.5 hours so far!
    One side benefit is that numerous apps that I had installed and services no longer needed are no longer eating resources. My Dell 820 is finally working as well as my desktop machine.
    In case anyone is interested I’ll detail the steps I took in a separate post.

      • Upgrading Slackware 13 to KDE 3.5.10 on a Dell D820 laptop.

        Originally, I installed 13.0 to my Dell D820 laptop with the exception of KDE and QT as originally detailed by Trent. I had various issues such as trouble getting window focus using the keyboard and even some failure of getting key inputs to konsole sessions. Also none of the windows were configurable and didn’t have the title bar.

        Started with a fresh, full install of Slackware 12.2 and verified a basic functionability.

        Upgraded 12.2 to 13.0 with exception of KDE; i.e /slackware/kde. If this is your first time attempting this, Pat includes a doc to guide you…RTFM and follow it.

        Fixed new /etc/conf files.

        Thanks to Trent’s earlier post I installed the following files from the 12.2 cd:
        l/arts-1.5.10-i486-2.tgz
        l/dbus-qt3-0.70-i486-2.tgz
        l/qca-1.0–i486-2.tgz
        l/qca-tls-1.0-i486-2.tgz

        Rebooted once again and everything came up and as far as I can tell, all is well. The only utilitiy I have installed is wicd and that went just fine and works as expected. The few KDE configurations I performed went as expected with absolutely no surprises.

        I did compile and install QT4 from source and it installed into /usr/local/Trolltech/QT4 by default. No apps installed that use QT4 but there is no reason why it shouldn’t work.

  14. I have a lot of good things to say about the KDE forums. The let me rant when I needed to helped me when they could, and, whether the connection was direct or not, some of my complaints were addressed in subsequent releases.

    The Kubuntu forums, indeed the whole Kubuntu distro is another story. The KDE developers don’t like hearing complaints, but they are dedicated creative people, and they want to know. I came to them sincerely, often sincerely crazy, and they never objected, never told me to shut up. Kubuntu is run by fanboys and control freaks. They totally undermined Tim Peasrson’s effort to create a KDE3 version of Kubuntu. They put misinformation in their wikis. And the exchange that got me banned began when I tried to post an article by… are you ready for this? Aaron Seigo!

    I mean seriously, a lot of those guys are super jerks and yet I have to give them some credit, cause based on my results, (which are never to be relyed upon, but they’re all I got) Kubuntu is the only KDE4 based distro worth running.

    IMO, KDE4 is not trash; it’s the forerunner of a new generation of desktops that will give us the ability to design dedicated work envronments for specific tasks instead of everything all together in one distracting mess. I think this could turn out to be important. But right now it’s pretty slow if your hardware is only so so, and he eyecandy is getting in the way. It’s half baked and overdone at the same time, but it’s exciting and new, and some people are probably already starting to explore the possibilities, and if I have the hardware and and happen to LIKE a lot of eye candy, hell, is that a mortal sin?

    Respect is a world where the developers can develop, the KDE4 fanboys can use what they like, the KDE 3 fanboys can use what they like… and the Gnome fanboys can go to hell!

    Okay, I was kidding about that last one. But we already have the first three. And we always have had them.

  15. The mode where KDE4 looks a lot like KDE3 is called “Folder View “, not Desktop view. It’s confusing because Folderview is also the name of a widget. The awesome thing about folderview is that it takes the traditional desktop backdrop and lets you apply it to any folder. In other words, the desktop will display the icons, folders and files of any directory you choose the way the KDE 3 desktop or the gnome desktop currently display the folder named ~/Desktop. I think there ‘s huge potential in this, and no doubt some people are are already exploring it.

    My issues with KDE4 fall in two categories 1: It’s slow.
    That’s the biggie

    2: Stuff that’s in the Details. For example, I really prefer Knewsticker, which fits neatly into the tiniest panel, to rss now, which was clearly designed as a desktop widget, with the panel version as an afterthought. And I really prefer Konqueror 3, whose menus don’t seem to change as it goes from “mode” to “mode”

    As far as the KDE4 fanboys are concerned, there’s a line between trying to be helpful and being presumptuous. I think a lot of them do stay on the right side of the line. being a KDE refugee is inconvenient to say the least, and I feel that some guys are just trying to spare me the hassle. At the other extreme are those who expect you to justify your choice to them., That’s when I want to tell them to SUCK IT!

    • The awesome thing about folderview is that it takes the traditional desktop backdrop and lets you apply it to any folder. In other words, the desktop will display the icons, folders and files of any directory you choose the way the KDE 3 desktop or the gnome desktop currently display the folder named ~/Desktop.

      Yep, I figured that out in 4.3. Took them long enough to make some sane desktop behavior. The fact that there doesn’t seem to be ANY way to do that in 4.2.4 is yet another indication to me that it simply didn’t belong in a Slackware release in anything other than /testing.

      When I wrote this particular article, I was really pissed off that day. I was on the LinuxQuestions.org forums and I saw a thread that someone started asking a very similar question that I was about to ask. And out of a dozen or so replies, two were helpful, the rest were just “but WHY don’t you like KDE 4?” and some were downright insulting.

      Considering the rather awkward position KDE 4 in my Slackware has put a lot of users in, I kind of went off, and wrote up this “knock it off” post in response to that (and other stuff like it I’ve been seeing for months).

      I know that some of them are just trying to be helpful, in an unintentionally condescending sort of way. There’s only so much of that one can take, however.

    • I haven’t tried it. I gave up in disgust after a couple hours in dependency hell trying to get Songbird to work on my existing Slackware machine.

      I have been meaning to give it a try on my Ubuntu laptop, but I noticed it’s not even in any repositories yet, so I just haven’t gotten around to it just yet.

  16. There is a chance that most of the KDE4 fanboys are poeple who, on account of their distro switching over, and not being Linux-savvy enough to switch back, were forced to compromise, and want you to share their pain. I have never-for example-found on any os a file manager as feature-full as Konqueror.

  17. Goddamn it, I just lost the post I’ce been writing for the better part of an hour. When oh WHEN will I lean not to trust composing in the brower?

    Anyway, I’m going to try to start a KDE3 community, beginning with a a website and a forum. Hope you’ll join me. More soon.

    http://outkasts3510.wordpress.com

    That may be a link to the site, which at the moment contains nothing. Will keep you posted.

    • Awesome! Yes, I’ll definitely join you in any way I can support it. I love KDE 3.5, I tend to write compulsively, and I have a big mouth. Does that qualify me?

  18. Lord, yes! I’m too too erratic to carry a blog by myself, so I could use your help, plus, I like how your point of view and mine complement each other. I see you as the bad Cop, more critical of KDE, and that’ll allow me to be mr nice guy. Honestly, I could be both, but that makes me crazy. Both points of view are valid. KDE4 is both an incredibly important and worthwhile project, and a hell of a thing to inflict on your users.

    I hope you’ll reprint your upgrade tutorial there. I reinstalled Slackware 13, with KDE3 because I wanted to continue to field test the combination. The occasional siezing up, which occurs with any KDE or no KDE installed.

    Biggest prtoblem with Slackware so far is that I haven’t figured out how to play a DVD.

    Check this out! Every KDE3 user needs to read this article from Aaron Seigo, Mr. Plasma, probably the best known KDE developer. Posting this in the Kubuntu forum started the flame war that wound up with me being banned. This is why I believe that a community can keep KDE3 viable for as long as it wants.

    http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/01/talking-bluntly.html

    Meme 1: What is the future of 3.5?

    This year, as with most years since KDE3 emerged, there have been huge deployments of KDE 3 based software. These deployments will not shift for years to come, no matter what KDE4 is. This is because large institutional deployments (government, corporate, educational, etc) typically have 3-7 year cycles (sometimes even longer) between major changes. Patches and security fixes? Sure. Major revamps? No. This alone ensures that KDE3 will remain supported for years. Why? Because there are users. That is how the open source dev model works: where there are users, there are developers; as one declines so does the other. The developers tend to be a step ahead of the users for software that is progressive, but you’ll also find that they have a foot in the here and now too (as well as the past, often).

    KDE3 is still open in our svn so that bug fixes, security fixes, etc. can continue to be made. KDE 3.5.x is a rather solid desktop system and really doesn’t need a huge amount of work given what it is today; the work to move it to the next level is what we refer to as KDE4, of course. This means that the efforts needed to put into it aren’t huge to keep it viable. However, efforts that do go into it are welcome.

    While the core KDE team will continue to concentrate our work on KDE4 since that is the long term direction of things, it is fully expected that our partners (which include some KDE core team members as employees/members) will continue supporting and even developing on KDE3 issues. The central project will also be around to lend a helping hand with advice and what not; I did that for a person the week before I left for holidays in December, actually, so it’s not wild hypothesis but solid theory.

    For those familiar with the open source method, the above probably sounds .. well .. obvious. That’s because it is .. for those familiar with the open source method. We will find in this blog entry that many of the concerns people raise come from not acknowledging how Free(dom) software is created via the open source method.

  19. I generally agree about kde 4. The problem isn’t really immaturity, it’s design philosophy, which is far too much about graphics, and has lost all its emphasis on configurability.

    I’m beginning to like Qt 4 though, it seems better than 3.

    • I generally agree about kde 4. The problem isn’t really immaturity, it’s design philosophy, which is far too much about graphics, and has lost all its emphasis on configurability.

      I agree 100%.

  20. Hey :D that goofball you are commenting on was from my forum post. I was (still am) trying to see if Xfce4 can step up to the plate a be a full grown Desktop Environment to replace KDE4 (Cuz we both know how bad KDE4 is).

    I was floored for the same exact reason that you were that Pat V (still the man) went ahead and rushed KDE4 into Slackware 13.0 (unlucky number or what!) YES I SAID IT: RUSHED! Must have slipped a cog or something. Well we all make mistakes, and Pat V is after all only human, too. That was a doozy, for sure, but consider how few mistakes there have been in Slackware up to this point, and Pat V was probably due for his blunder sometime soon.

    Anyway, it’s nice to be noticed, Trent. Thank you for ranting and raving pretty much exactly what i wanted to say.

  21. I wanted to add that, just like you who have gotten used to Fluxbox and using that, I have been using IceWM (still using Slackware 12.2), in conjunction with Idesk Xscreensaver, & MenuMaker working together. I am not looking forward to it, but i know somewhere on the horizon, I’ll be having to deal without KDE 3.5.10 (or 3.5.11… 3.6.1… 3.7.14… etc.) in future editions of Slackware. :( Xfce 4.6.1 isn’t looking that great. I guess I’ll just have to bite the bullet and do a lot more command line stuff. Good-bye, K3B. Hello, cdrecord (or is it wodim?)

  22. Hello Folks,

    I use sidux, which comes with KDE4+.
    A true Debian based distro.
    So I am able to remove KDE4+, and install other desktop’s, or use xdm/gdm/kdm.
    Just no gnome, as far as I know. But then I am not a gnome fan. I am starting to use some transcoding packages via cli, and how to implement them in bash scripts. I am “tinkering” also. But then Debian has over 20k packages, and I am still exploring them.
    I do use a bash script to handle my common packages that don’t come installed on default, and have some removed via that same script. i.e. apt-get -y install
    So I am able to change my desktop gui without to much issue.
    But then I view apt-get and yum in the same light. Just give me a 2.6.33+ kernel and a package manager. I will find my way around no problem.
    When it comes down to the “bottom line”.
    Just don’t make me use that Evil Redmond Empire stuff… Hooray for the Rebel Alliance!
    lol :D

  23. I like you am almost rabid about the way we kde3 users were outright abandoned and cut-off by the kde dev’s…the whole reason to switch to linux in the first place was the attraction of NOT being forced into planned obsolescence…by some “cody want’s a pony capitalists” that need to satisfy their stockholders by creating a whole new OS every quarter just to force change and money movements..damn…this whole war over kde4 would have been just fine if they just setup and keep up kde3 repositories…and knock it off with the dependencies bombs….LOL Nuff said ….
    I have installed and crashed with injuries….trying Trinity….so image back to my old faithful lenny 5.0 and stay put….man what a pain….!!!

    • Wow, digging out an old post today, huh? ;)

      The irony hasn’t been lost on me. Change for the sake of change is currently really hurting Microsoft.

      You’d think open source projects would show better civility toward their users.

  24. Well maybe I got carried away….
    I understand how the dev’s are an unstoppable force….and have to stay moving or drown….it just seemed like all of a sudden….here comes overnight the next iteration of kde and boom in my lap is this dolphin thingee
    and several layers deep of desktop levels that no longer have the ability to control a single stable desktop with icons that are clean (no hanging out edges….hahaha)…. very very alien….
    Could have been a little more gentle about it all
    Maybe have a toggle that say’s Ok OK ….lock me in 3 mode…..hehehe

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